Air France

syracusa

New member
TB Neg, you correctly point out that trains have fatality statistics too. I believe they were higher than those for planes in the past few years, maybe that has changed since the AF disaster, do you know? Let's not forget that terrible commuter crash in CA recently where the engineer was texting, or the Amtrak that took a dive into the water when the bridge went out.
I must agree that I have a misplaced confidence in the safety of the train, funny because there's the same loss of control that's supposed to make us dislike flying so there's more to this thing called fear of flying than just loss of control.
I'd be ok with your staying at home idea until it's 10 degrees up here and 80 in Florida,then I'm on the way to the airport,get me a seat on the next airbus out of here.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE trains!! Indeed, the SAFEST modern mean of transportation humans have invented and I would also say the most fun. Sure, they have fatalities too. Once in an extremely blue moon. And out of the given accident, most live, very few die. Trains are extremely safe. Train engineers text messaging while on duty, that's a different story.
I could literally LIVE in a train. I am probably much less safe in my own bed at night - granted burglars who can break in no problem. I also love its sounds and the rocking when I sleep in a couchette at night.

I just wish they could build a darn bridge with a railroad over the Atlantic.
 
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bw1

New member
Air France... discussion on thread

Air France... discussion on thread

To syracusa and LLL...

It would seem, by reading your comments, that there is no changing your mind in re the dangers of flying. That's fair, I suppose -- you certainly aren't the only folks on this thread who have a fear of flying. However, I question the relevance of the way the discussion has gone (or degenerated), and I question its value to you both, as well as those who use this forum regularly - whether posting or reading or both.

I too, am a fearful flyer. I do it, but I'm not crazy about it. I realize it's dangerous to an extent, but like tbneg and others have said, just about anything is dangerous (to an extent). I can't add anything to the statistics - not only because they've all been laid out here for you but also because you both seem rather intent on refuting every one. Fear has a way of doing that to you, making you push away all notions of logic and reason in favor of anything, real or imagined, that supports the fear.

I'm not criticizing either one of you, please know that. I am, however, suggesting that your comments aren't helping - yourselves or others who use this forum. Facing the possible dangers when flying is normal and natural; hyperfocusing on the dangers of flying is really unproductive. In this case, it doesn't change the sad fact that AF447 crashed nor does it give us anything to work with to improve our confidence levels when we do fly next.

The service provided on this site is really wonderful for those who hate turbulence and for whom it's one of the scarier aspects of flight. I'm not suggesting it's a cure-all for fearful flyers, I'm just saying that those who come here appreciate the knowledge, insight, shared experience, tips, etc. from kindred souls. If you can use that knowledge to your advantage, I'd encourage you to do so - you might find it helps alot. If you can't, no one's going to judge you for not doing so ... but you might want to ease up on the "fearmongering." It's my humble opinion that this may not be the place for it.
 

LLL

New member
I have flown many times.

I had a long talk with two AirTran pilots the other day. They told me that flying is safe. They also said that jetBlue pilots are treated well and just got a raise.

I'm in NY now. I spent twenty minutes watching planes take off as I walked around Flushing Meadows Park.

I'm going to try Delta in two weeks.
 

syracusa

New member
To syracusa and LLL...

It would seem, by reading your comments, that there is no changing your mind in re the dangers of flying. That's fair, I suppose -- you certainly aren't the only folks on this thread who have a fear of flying. However, I question the relevance of the way the discussion has gone (or degenerated), and I question its value to you both, as well as those who use this forum regularly - whether posting or reading or both.

I too, am a fearful flyer. I do it, but I'm not crazy about it. I realize it's dangerous to an extent, but like tbneg and others have said, just about anything is dangerous (to an extent). I can't add anything to the statistics - not only because they've all been laid out here for you but also because you both seem rather intent on refuting every one. Fear has a way of doing that to you, making you push away all notions of logic and reason in favor of anything, real or imagined, that supports the fear.

I'm not criticizing either one of you, please know that. I am, however, suggesting that your comments aren't helping - yourselves or others who use this forum. Facing the possible dangers when flying is normal and natural; hyperfocusing on the dangers of flying is really unproductive. In this case, it doesn't change the sad fact that AF447 crashed nor does it give us anything to work with to improve our confidence levels when we do fly next.

The service provided on this site is really wonderful for those who hate turbulence and for whom it's one of the scarier aspects of flight. I'm not suggesting it's a cure-all for fearful flyers, I'm just saying that those who come here appreciate the knowledge, insight, shared experience, tips, etc. from kindred souls. If you can use that knowledge to your advantage, I'd encourage you to do so - you might find it helps alot. If you can't, no one's going to judge you for not doing so ... but you might want to ease up on the "fearmongering." It's my humble opinion that this may not be the place for it.
Understood.
My recent posts have had mostly to do with a closer look at statistics (as I also happen to work with them). To say that I was disappointed about what I found out is an understatement. But you are right - the focus should nevertheless be on all those flights that do work. After all, I hope that the one I am scheduled to be on in July - will be one of those. Thanks again.
 

PlaneEnthusiast

New member
I have flown many times.

I had a long talk with two AirTran pilots the other day. They told me that flying is safe. They also said that jetBlue pilots are treated well and just got a raise.

I'm in NY now. I spent twenty minutes watching planes take off as I walked around Flushing Meadows Park.

I'm going to try Delta in two weeks.
LLL, I was once a very fearful flyer. Not anymore though, and it's a liberating feeling to be able to fly and not only enjoy it, but to not even fear anything about it. I admire your courage to face flying again, and hope I can offer a little support.

There was once a time that I couldn't even think of airplanes without getting a little dizzy. This was before 2001, when it was more possible to have chats with pilots on the ground before taking off. I was amazed by their passion for flying, and their cool precision with statistics. I asked them if they ever feared flying, to which they responded "you drove to the airport, correct? That is statistically at least 30 times more dangerous than any flight." I asked them if they would ever be scared in a crashing plane, to which they replied, "we love flying so much that it wouldn't matter."

I began to learn more about what makes most people fear flying most. Turbulence is one of them, because it feels so unexpected. What we don't realize is that most turbulence is simply a motion of the plane passing through differential levels of wind patterns, resulting in a motion of only one to two inches in any direction-- that's surprising since it often feels like more. Turbulence is not dangerous to a plane-- weather planes fly directly into hurricanes all the time.

Often being on a plane feels less safe than driving, for the lack of the sense that we are in control. Don't forget though, that the pilots' lives are on the line too. They are highly trained and many started out as Air Force pilots.

Keep in mind that in the United States, every day about 34,000 scheduled commercial flights make fly between destinations without incident. At any given moment, there are several thousand airliners in the air. They are constantly in communication with each other and with the ground to devise the smoothest flying routes for passengers. All things considered though, pilots actually *look forward* to turbulence because it makes the monotony of their jobs more interesting. They often compare it to driving a truck. For every hour that a plane is in the air, it's on the ground for three, being serviced.

There are many doctors in our country, very good and caring ones, who specialize in helping people overcome their fear of flying. The one I saw is in the Boston area (I could recommend her if you wish). I thought myself to be a horrible, off-the-charts case, and totally incurable. In fact she told me that she saw far, far worse cases, and that she was 100% successful with all of them. Within two months, I was flying again without a dash of fear! ;-) She used a combination of techniques. First was information about flying. Secondly I was introduced to a variety of cognitive-behavioral self-analyses which were completely new to my thought processes.

One example is to ask yourself in real time "on a scale of one to ten, where is my anxiety level right now?" You start to see yourself outside of yourself, ie rationally instead of emotionally. It's fascinating to watch the number go up and down, and then overall, things sometimes tend to settle down.

Another technique is desensitization. Sometimes the feeling of panic itself is a snowball effect. The inability to breathe well scares us. So, I practiced breathing through a straw to induce that scary feeling. Eventually, I no longer feared it.

Fearful thoughts tend to be in terms of black and white. They often catastrophize (it's a word now :) themselves. When you feel yourself thinking these thoughts, keep a log of them, and try to ask yourself if they are founded.

You are on the right track! Watch planes, think about them, learn about them, develop a passion for them, talk about them. They are marvelous, human creations! Look around and see all the die-hard airplane enthusiasts!

I now look forward so much to my next flight that I cannot wait to step onto my next flight. Flying is a mind-clearing, transcendental experience which gives me a feeling of elation that I do not get elsewhere.

I might add too, that paradoxically overcame my fear of flying in conjunction with an in-depth study of air crash investigations and the heroic behavior of pilots in the face of adversity. I began to realize in fact what an intensely regulated industry the aviation industry is.

I hope that I might have helped you in some ways, and wish I could recommend some books to you that have helped me, if you or others are interested.

If I was able to overcome a fear of flying completely, I am convinced anybody can. You can do it! :)
 
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ryanbryan

New member
Far be it from me to want to scare anyone, and other than this it is a good post, but this:

For every hour that a plane is in the air, it's on the ground for three, being serviced.
...is simply not true. If this were the case no one would be in the airline business, as you're only making money when you're in the air!
 

PlaneEnthusiast

New member
Far be it from me to want to scare anyone, and other than this it is a good post, but this:



...is simply not true. If this were the case no one would be in the airline business, as you're only making money when you're in the air!
This was a direct quote from the book "Flying? No Fear!: A Handbook for Apprehensive Flyers by Adrian Akers-Douglas and George Georgiou"
 

ryanbryan

New member
Yeah, sorry. Still not true.

It couldn't possibly be true - imagine if you had a car that was off the road for three days being serviced for every one day you had in on the road. You just wouldn't bother.
 

PlaneEnthusiast

New member
Yeah, sorry. Still not true.

It couldn't possibly be true - imagine if you had a car that was off the road for three days being serviced for every one day you had in on the road. You just wouldn't bother.
So I just spoke to a mechanic at United. He told me this ratio has more to do with the amount of hours a plane is in the air compared with the amount of man-hours of work put in on the plane, including during mandatory overhaul. Hope that helps!
 

PlaneEnthusiast

New member
Yeah, sorry. Still not true.

It couldn't possibly be true - imagine if you had a car that was off the road for three days being serviced for every one day you had in on the road. You just wouldn't bother.
One more little tidbit-- a plane's maintenance needs are very different from a car's. For example, the F-22 in the news these days? The Office of the Department of Defense says the plane requires 34 hours of maintenance for every single hour of flight it makes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22#Maintenance
 

ryanbryan

New member
Yes, and they indicate in the referring article that the plane requiring that many hours to service/maintain is a very big problem. And fighter jets are a completely different story to airliners - for one thing, they are not designed to make money, and they fly under and are maintained under completely different conditions.

Forget everything you've read, and think about it:

Who would buy anything that is out of service being repaired or maintained MORE than it is in service? It just does not make sense, and is most certainly not true. Not by hours, not by ratio, not by nothing. If it were true, every airline would have gone out of business a long time ago.
 
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tek

Lifetime Elite
Maintenance

Maintenance

The FAA has requirements for maintenance that are met by aircraft owners according to the rules under which they operate. It is all spelled out and very simple. Military operates under their own jurisdiction. You need not wory about that.
 

PlaneEnthusiast

New member
Who would buy anything that is out of service being repaired or maintained MORE than it is in service?
There's a lot about the airline industry that is counter-intuitive to folks who cannot understand how high-precision it is. I spoke again to a commercial pilot today in Chicago. I mentioned to him what you said. He said "and just how does he think anything ever gets into the air?"
 

keltic

New member
The EU doesn´t act as any kind of "Spectra" hidding facts to people, because we live in democracies as well. They may try to do so, but at the ends things will be uncover. We have free media. The most interested in finding the black boxes are AF and Airbus for obvious reasons. Passengers and the French has lost their confidence on the airline and Airbus is absolutely interested in clearing the reputation of its model, which is so far impressive. Even if the weather radars didn´t work properly, these have been fitted by american company called Honeywell. So they might be interested in changing the causes, never not to find the boxes. Doesn´t make sense to me.

Airbus has been designing fine and excelent planes for generations. Sometimes it´s hard for Boeing understanding that Europeans can design good planes too. EADS as it´s called now, has inherited the European excelence of aircraft manufacturing, which throughout history has given excelent pieces like BAC-1-11, VC10, Concorde, Caravelle, Fokker. And throughout years they have been able to sell planes even in the US. Airlines, pilots, technicians, who trust Airbus are not stupid, and wouldn´t fly planes which are not safe. Airbuses are flown regularly in the US, and used by reliable airlines with so significant problem issues. Of course all models develop some specific failures, but not as to tell them they are unsafe. Presidents, VIP, kings and queens use corporative planes. Even President Sarkozy uses a brand new A330 to fly himself and his wife.

So far any, any Airbus in their long history has never developed any flaw, nor even crashed by a design mistake. At least until now.
 
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